Iran Missile Test

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Originally Posted by Biggin

Wow, just wow.

For such an intelligent person, you made yourself seem very ignorant and filled with hate.

So because of portion of the religion is fanatical and extremist, we should eradicate the whole religion? Are YOU kidding me?

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Way to open with a strawman argument! Where do I propose to eradicate Islam? At least argue the points present

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Originally Posted by Biggin

Muslims universally supported Hitler's vision???
Not true. The pioneer of radical Islam, Muhammad Al Husseini, was fond of Hitler's beliefs and also was very outspoken in his goals to murder Jews and retake the Holy Land for only Muslims, yes. But it was far from universal support of his ideals by the Islamic community.

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He was far from the only Islamic leader who embraced Hitler, he was just the best known. Much is made of the hordes of Muslims who fought against the Nazi's in WW2, but it doesn't take more than a quick glance to see that nearly every one of them came from India or other British Empire states and really had no choice in the matter. I should have said that outside of the British Empire Hitler had near universal support in the Muslim world and that is absolutely true, despite the revisionist efforts.

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Originally Posted by Biggin

And the US was not an enemy of the Islamic terrorists until after WWII, more specifically after the US declared war on Germany, because of the relationship between Hitler and Al Husseini.

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Lol, this nations oldest U.S. military monument honors men who fought against Islamic terrorists.

So, the Ottoman Empires allegiance to the Central Powers in World War One and it's partitioning after it's defeat are of no consequence? The truth is, there is no shortage of Islamic leaders who will tell you point-blank that our nation and our way of life is in direct conflict with Islam and cannot be reconciled short of our conversion or destruction.

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Originally Posted by Biggin

I could go the same exact way wit Christianity.
It has been involved in violence, hate, and war since the beginning of time.
People taking the name of Christianity into violence and hatred for years, as with Islam.

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So, the world is only 2,000 years old?

There is a huge difference between a nation which is predominately Christian participating in imperialistic acts and the religion itself explicitly demanding that it's followers be imperialists. It always come down to "the evil Christians" for you guys. It's a freakin' broken record. Your hate is quite evident even if you don't realize it. The fact is you don't see major Christian leaders calling for the absolute conversion or slaughter of all non-believers. In fact it's not really Islam standing in direct conflict with Christianity. It's Islam standing in direct conflict with every other major religion in the world. No other major religion sports the ongoing, never ending, history of hate and violence that Islam does....beginning with it's founder.

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Originally Posted by Biggin

You use M.A.H. indirectly as an example of Islamic violence and genocide, but if you can make an argument to eradicate all Muslims because of the works of extremists using the word of religion as a crutch, abusing it and defiling the name of Islam by misusing its followers and teachings, then why not Christianity as well?
Adolf Hitler used his religion as propaganda and distorted the real meanings of religion to serve his ambitions, and he was of Christian faith.

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AGAIN, the first part is a strawman (or lie if you prefer).

So, Hitler was a Christian? You realize that the only times he made this claim can be clearly shown as political posturing. Let's see what he (and you) really think of Christianity:

Adolf Hitler -"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

Adolf Hitler - "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

Adolf Hitler - "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery...."

Adolf Hitler - "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....

Isn't this exactly the view you have expressed, just slightly nastier wording?

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Originally Posted by Biggin

There is more Islamic extremist violence now sure, but there are more Muslims in the world than any other religion.
And Muslims arent the only people who distort religious beliefs and use the name of religion in terrorism, radical Christian extremists murder abortion doctors and bomb abortion clinics.


See, you can twist anything.

Its not fair to blame a whole religion for the actions of a few, you have said that on here numerous times, correct?
Then why are you trying to blame Muslim terrorism on the Islamic religion as a whole?.

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It's about quantity and lack of taking responsibility and lack of making an effort to confront it.

Sure, people from other religions commit terrible acts. But, are you going to deny that Muslims commit the vast majority of terrorists acts? In fact many hundreds of times more acts of terror than people from any other religion. The numbers are easy to find and clearly make this point. If it was two to one I could defend the religion as a whole. But when it gets to several hundred to one......

There is also the issue of major leaders of the religion actively calling for more acts of terror and violence. I mean MAJOR leaders of the religion. Want to find me some truly powerful Christian leaders calling for their followers to commit murder?

plus trying to find a true Muslim leader, with actual influence, who is willing even to criticise these acts is like finding a needle in a haystack. they do exist, but are seen less often than bigfoot.

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Originally Posted by Biggin

I dont think the US should totally ignore Israel, but I also do not think we would be in this horrible grave danger you are saying if we did cut ties with the Israelis.

One question, do you disagree that our relationship with Israel upsets some Muslim entities?

one more point:

I would rather die a man who people knew never judged people by their beliefs or color, who gave every man equal opportunity, than live as a man who discriminated by belief or race.

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*Stands and applauds your gallant stand for peace and justice for all*

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Originally Posted by R13

I can say the same thing about Christians here when an abortion doctor gets shot, hell there were several on this board that sympathized with the last one. I disagree, how many times do groups come out and condemn when an attack happens? Honestly, even if they didn't, I wouldn't blame them at all...do you think people should constantly apologize and defend themselves for what some lunatic does half way around the world? They still do though, something I wouldn't bother with if I were them, just isn't worth it.

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addressed above.

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Originally Posted by R13

The Christian God was a pretty big warlord, so it was founded by one too. Christianity has been just as violent, for longer than Islam. As I said before, Islam is still 600 year behind Christianity, the fundamentalist dwindle down over time...what makes me think Islam will be any different?

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So, Jesus was a warlord? LOL @ part two. Failed first grade math did you?

The despots have to be compared to the values and actions of others living in their own time, not placed in some religion specific time warp.

We need Isreal and Isreal need us. To think otherwise is borderline insane to me.

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Originally Posted by pvfan

We need Isreal and Isreal need us. To think otherwise is borderline insane to me.

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That says a lot.

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Originally Posted by pvfan

We need Isreal and Isreal need us. To think otherwise is borderline insane to me.

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Well I agree with half of that, Israel does need sponge off of us. I'd like to believe that, but in reality we need China a lot more than we would ever need Israel.


Again, no one is saying to not help them at all or abandoning them. They serve some kind of purpose, nice to have a place to store some weapons and some airstrips to use without a problem over there. That's about it.

Israel is a lot more trouble than they are worth, unless someone can tell me how they aren't? Or can tell me what they've done to deserve that much aid and devotion to?

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Originally Posted by R13

Well I agree with half of that, Israel does need sponge off of us. I'd like to believe that, but in reality we need China a lot more than we would ever need Israel.


Again, no one is saying to not help them at all or abandoning them. They serve some kind of purpose, nice to have a place to store some weapons and some airstrips to use without a problem over there. That's about it.

Israel is a lot more trouble than they are worth, unless someone can tell me how they aren't? Or can tell me what they've done to deserve that much aid and devotion to?

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Well.....that's just asinine

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Originally Posted by Gotch

Well.....that's just asinine

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Tell me why then, what part of it wasn't right?

And I've asked at least three times why Israel should receive this much funding from us? Or what have they done to deserve it?

For one, they are a great buffer for the Western world in the Middle East. They handle themselves pretty dang well and have some of the most elite fighting forces in the world. They have used those forces in the past to help minimize the growth of the dangerous countries surrounding them, (such as their attack in 1981 of a nuclear reactor in Iraq) and the 6 days war. They are a much better ally than the alternatives.

But what have they done for us? I know they can take care of them self, that's my whole point, they can thank us for a lot of that but still. Stripes I'm not saying they aren't a good ally to have over there, sure it's nice, but why can't it be like a Britain/France thing? Good allies, but not sending billions to every year. They have received more economic/military aid since WW2 than any country and I can't see what they've done for us to deserve it. They have been hurtful a lot more than an asset, i.e. a lot of the hate for the US over there, which doesn't have to mean an attack on us either - the 73' oil crisis.

The "HATE" has and would happen whether we are allied with Israel or not. Its the western way of life that those people hate. Not because we are allied with Israel. Don't misconstrue the word "aid" though. Most of that is actually sales of military equipment to Israel, where it is most definitely beneficial for us to be allied with us if they are going to purchase 2 billion dollars worth of equipment from us and for us to make sales to these other countries, we need to be able to trust them.

And we are selling it to people who probably are not going to use it against us, as may not be the case in most other sells. In fact they would likely be one of the few to come to our aid if needed.

Without our strong backing Israel would be left to defend herself against certain attack. You worry about actions leading to nuclear "options" in the middle east? There is a sure fire way to set it off and I wouldn't blame them. Israel has a very large and diverse stockpile of nuclear weapons (by nearly all accounts) and would use them to defend herself, and rightfully so.

I really question your reasoning here? I mean I really do. It's not just a matter of not agreeing with you. You suggest we "cut Israel loose" and try to form allegiances with nations who strongly desire our destruction. Not just Arab nations but also China? I prefer to keep rabid dogs at a distance, not snuggle with them. Some of your points seem to make sense in a black and white world but we don't live in a black and white world.

At risk of sounding like I'm falling back on an appeal to authority, I would have to say that no real foreign policy expert would agree with your thinking. It actually seems, bizarre at it's core.